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Nature's Architects
Understand more about the interaction between the natural and built environments, and what impact we are currently having on what can be sometimes opposing environments. Pete and the team at Wharton Natural Infrastructure Consultants will be speaking with architects, masterplanners, planning consultants, landscape architects, developers and land managers about how they reach a balance between land use and the natural environment. We will also explore what people think is important when considering developable areas and how, through good design and collaboration we can create better place and space where people want to live, work and play.
Nature's Architects
Neurodiversity in the Workplace: Challenges, Triumphs, and Finding Balance
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ADHD isn't simply a disorder — it's a fundamentally different way our brains are wired. This perspective lies at the heart of our candid conversation with Natalie Sabian, Senior Ecologist and passionate advocate for workplace neurodiversity.
Through personal anecdotes that will resonate with many, Natalie reveals the paradoxical experience of being both celebrated and penalised for the same ADHD traits. Her extroversion and creativity make her exceptional with clients and presentations, yet these same qualities have led to reprimands in formal office settings. This selective acceptance creates an exhausting double standard: be your neurodivergent self, but only when it's convenient for others.
We explore the courage it takes for neurodivergent individuals to speak up about workplace issues when others remain silent. This advocacy—born from a deep sense of social justice—often results in being labelled a "troublemaker" despite addressing concerns shared by many colleagues. The conversation delves into rejection sensitivity, the emotional impact of criticism, and practical strategies for self-advocacy.
Whether you're neurodivergent yourself, manage neurodivergent team members, or simply want to create a more inclusive workplace, this episode offers valuable insights into embracing different thinking patterns. By understanding and accommodating neurological differences, we can build environments where everyone thrives through their authentic contributions rather than despite them. How might your workplace benefit from these perspectives?
Listen now and join us in celebrating Neurodiversity Celebration Week by expanding your understanding of how different minds bring invaluable perspectives to our work and lives.
Find out more about we can help you secure the relationship between the natural and built environments and ultimately increase the value of your site at https://www.wnic.co.uk/.
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Thank you for tuning in to Nature's Architects, where we bring together the threads of the natural and the man-made, exploring the natural environment in passionate and dynamic fashion to positively disrupt how it is viewed. If today’s conversation has planted a seed of curiosity or if there’s a specific environmental topic you’re burning to hear more about, we’re all ears. Reach out to us at hello@wnic.co.uk – your insights and questions are the soil from which our discussions grow.
Don’t forget to like, subscribe, download, and follow us on your preferred podcast platform. By doing so, you’re not just keeping the dialogue alive; you’re becoming an integral part of a community dedi
Thank you for tuning in to Nature's Architects, where we bring together the threads of the natural and the man-made, exploring the natural environment in passionate and dynamic fashion to positively disrupt how it is viewed. If today’s conversation has planted a seed of curiosity or if there’s a specific environmental topic you’re burning to hear more about, we’re all ears. Reach out to us at hello@wnic.co.uk – your insights and questions are the soil from which our discussions grow.
Don’t forget to like, subscribe, download, and follow us on your preferred podcast platform. By doing so, you’re not just keeping the dialogue alive; you’re becoming an integral part of a community dedicated to designing a future in harmony with nature.
From all of us at Nature's Architects, thank you for listening, for engaging, and for being the change our planet needs. Until next time, keep building bridges between the natural and built environments.
Introduction to Nature's Architects podcast
Speaker 2Thank you, hello and welcome to Nature's Architects. I'm your host, pete Wharton, and Director of Wharton Natural Infrastructure Consultants. We will be interviewing and speaking to as many influencing people and organisations as possible to understand more about how we can rebalance the relationship between the natural and built environments, creating a future where we live in balance with and connected to nature, where we live in balance with and connected to nature. So it's National Neurodiversity Celebration Week this week. I'm here with Natalie Sabian, one of the wonderful senior ecologists at Wharton, and we're going to have a bit of a chat about neurodiversity, kind of the pros and cons around it in the workplace. So it's over to you, natalie.
Speaker 3Yeah, I mean I have ADHD, so I know you have anive type. I have combined type, which is I've forgotten the word already what an ADHD thing Hyperactivity.
Speaker 2Hyperactivity. There we go, it's in the name.
Speaker 3It is in the name. So I have the hyperactive side and the inattentive side. So it's kind of like potluck what you're going to get.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3Makes it a bit more exciting, doesn't it? Yeah, exactly, and I got that um uh, two or three years ago now, I think. Um, and I kind of wanted to talk about stuff in terms of the negative aspects of adhd in the workplace, because I think it's very easy for us to be like here's all the positive things, and aren't we superheroes?
Speaker 3and it's a superpower, and yeah you know blah blah and you know there are obviously lots of positive aspects to people having adhd yeah, and in the workplace, but there are negative ones, and one that's particularly stuck out for me, other than my sort of extrovertness that that can be an issue. Um, the other thing is the impulsivity people with adhd yeah we can. Often we take a lot more risks than neurotypical people and I was trying to think back to all the times where I've been the one that's spoken out about something, particularly at work.
Speaker 2Do you find that's like a problem? Is that kind of looked at by the members of the staff who perhaps just don't get it? Sometimes they look a bit odd.
Speaker 3I think often it's stuff that I'm bringing up to management that's maybe not convenient for them to hear. Um, and you know, often I've been seen as like a rebel rouser yeah it is a cool term but you know it's not necessarily rocking the boat, it's not necessarily seen as a something good from a staff member. Um, and the furthest back I can remember was when I was waitressing when I was at university and you know I was getting much more tips than everybody else because my HDM could talk to people and we were sharing tips and I was always coming out with less, and so some of the other waitress and waitresses were all like, yeah, we want to have our own tips and we.
Speaker 3And I said, OK, let's bring it up in the staff meeting. And the next staff meeting, every single person there was silent and I was the only one to bring it up.
Speaker 2Right, OK.
Speaker 3And I you know that has happened to me in almost every job that I've been in where you have the people on the same level as me agreeing with what I'm saying. They're bringing stuff to me, they're bringing problems to me and I'm like, hey, let's sort this me. They're bringing problems to me and I'm like, hey, let's sort this. I want to be proactive, let's have a talk, it's fine.
Speaking out and workplace challenges
Speaker 2and it's always me. Everyone else is silent. So do you find that like neurotypical people? They would discuss it and then there'll be a silent and actually, obviously, being the director of company, I have people approaching on different things and I I think it was within your first couple of weeks here what was it? We so we, we do these 90-day plans. We like to involve the team, we want to get the team's ideas.
Speaker 2So Natalie was put as that person to broach the subject of work hours I think it was at the time which is a great subject to kind of talk about, to actually look at as a team, as a company, see what works, what doesn't work, what did the team what? But? But you were the one person who kind of put your head above the parapet in that first couple of weeks and to some people that would be seen as bloody hell. This person's a bit of a troublemaker, but actually it wasn't and actually, because I get you and we kind of got each other pretty much instantly, I just saw it as actually this is somebody who's wants to put something across and actually you've chosen to do it in a way, in the right way, and it was.
Speaker 3It was done in the right way at that time, and I found that that's such a difference from every other country I've worked for. Every other company that I've worked for. There has been a difference here where, because you also have ADHD, it's so much easier for me to talk to you, and putting your head above the parapet is just such the perfect thing, because my husband and everything. Why does it always have to be you now?
Speaker 3and I've had previous line managers say well, this thing that you're bringing up is not your problem, it doesn't affect you. But I'm seeing, maybe junior staff that aren't happy or aren't being treated well in in other companies and and I feel like I want to the sense of social justice with with nhd people, I want to help them you know I want to bring it up because I do have the confidence, but that's not always looked upon favourably, particularly in a more formal work setting.
Speaker 2So how is it negatively looked at? Then Give us an example of actually those instances where it has been and you've come away from that just thinking, oh God, that was, I dealt with it how I thought it should be dealt with, but actually it hasn't been kind of transpired and come across perhaps in the way they thought it would be.
Speaker 3In previous companies I have actually been asked to tow the line more right, okay so it's been part of my review process where they've said you're becoming more senior, now you should be towing the line. You shouldn't be. You know this sort of leader that's coming out and and causing problems like you should. You should be encouraging that person to talk to their line manager, and there's certain, you know, there is obviously truth to that. Um, but also, I just like to see justice happen yeah, I think it's getting the balance, isn't it?
Speaker 2because actually you have to have the. The really good thing about people with adhd is that they are risk takers, you said, but they might be creative, they might come up with ideas that other people might not quite have thought about in that same way, but they do sometimes have that filter where they don't you, you kind of think and you blurted out before you've even thought about it. As opposed to taking that step back, is this now the right time to do things, and actually that's quite important to kind of recognize, but also for other people to recognize as well yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 3I just think it's just if you, if you're dealing with you know a neuro, um, a non-neurotypical person, just try and think that their heart is in the right place, perhaps, even if, even if maybe they've not or they've reacted, you know, emotionally, or they seem like they're causing trouble all the time, like it's kind of they're just trying to be nice to colleagues and trying to shape the company and move the company forward.
ADHD strengths vs formal office settings
Speaker 2And it's interesting. So I've been into a couple of schools over the past week as well and listening to parents as well as well as some of the children, and actually one thing that's come out of very often the people with ADHD or other neurodiverse kind of traits are very much. They inspire you because they do take a risk and actually that's creative, that's kind of entrepreneurship, and actually perhaps the school system in some ways is nullifying that as well, because actually we're all round pegs and round holes ultimately, and actually we don't always fit that mould. Not that we're going against it per se, because we don't necessarily have our way to that.
Speaker 3We're going against it per se because we don't necessarily go out of our way to go against things, but it just our brains are just different like I feel quite strongly, I don't, I don't think that they're disorders I think they're labeled as disorders because of the world that we live in now yeah you know. I just think that they're different ways that our brains are wired and perhaps these were better back in cave times when we were having to react in hunts and things like that and be very reactive.
Speaker 3But perhaps when we shoved in front of a desk, perhaps nine to five, and expected to perform for those eight hours a day, you know, that's when suddenly it becomes a disorder because we can't sit and do that and that's then seen as a negative and. I do think it should be just rebranded, as you know.
Speaker 2But it's not a disorder, it's just a different brain yeah, and that's what it is, and I think that'll probably remove a lot of the stereotyping, particularly in school. And you see these kids going through it and they're actually scared to speak up and they feel like they've got to sit on their hands a little bit and bite their tongue when they want to say something, and I think that stops creativity in some ways. So are there any other negative kind of parts to it that you've kind of seen?
Speaker 3I found quite difficult is my extrovertness linked with the sort of speaking out, but I've had issues in previous companies where the positives of my extrovertness are utilised Getting on presentations. She's fantastic with clients you know, put her in front of an audience, you know, get her to do the quiz yeah, you know you know it's it, she's, she's going to be funny and she's going to be great.
Speaker 3But then that then isn't accepted, that extrovertness in a more formal office setting. So it kind of gets pigeonholed, as you're allowed to be ADHD in these settings where it's convenient for us yeah but you know I've been told off before so many times for being allowed for singing for 10 seconds on the stairwell yeah, you do like doing that, I do, I quite like it as well, and I just want to point out.
Speaker 3I don't get told off for that here and it's just very refreshing and you know. But it has got to points where I don't. I didn't want to go into offices, I didn't want to go to work because you know most people would be like she's a breath of fresh air and I was getting all this lovely feedback on anonymous feedback forms. And she's a breath of fresh air, she's like a rainbow you know, and all this nice stuff.
Speaker 3But then when you're working with people who perhaps prefer to work in a slightly older way very formal, quiet in the office, no music it then becomes a problem where I'm sort of being sprayed like a puppy with a spray bottle.
Self-awareness and workplace adjustments
Speaker 3You know, like badge yeah you know, and and that can be very damaging and very upsetting because adhd people have quite a high rejection sensitivity issue where you know, we do seem very confident, but as soon as someone criticizes us, particularly for something that we feel we can't control, it can be very upsetting, um, and then the emotional reaction is huge. You know, the world's ended because this person said I was too loud today and I was really embarrassed and I felt sheepish and I was just trying to have fun and you know can be very, very difficult.
Speaker 2I think sometimes and I think actually because you've kind of grown with kind of the ADHD as well and probably got a later diagnosis than some and myself I was very late diagnosed but actually I think one of the positives is you recognise when you're having a bad day, so you'll just text us and you'll just say look, do you know what? I can almost feel myself, I'm going to be disruptive today. Yeah, so I'm going to stay at home because actually I can concentrate in my mode. I put my headphones on, I can. I can concentrate on certain things which is great.
Speaker 3I'll distract other people.
Speaker 2Yeah, and obviously either lifts or brings down a team sometimes, which is yeah, and it depends again positive and negative and it really is dependent on that and I know that from my own feelings as well when I'm in the office and I know when I like with my inattentive kind of element is that sometimes you get broken out of that.
Speaker 3It's very, very difficult to get back in. Yeah, um, that's where headphones are fantastic I have noise counseling headphones in the office. Yeah, I will often say in the office I'm going headphones in because I feel like I'm distracting you all. So, in order for me to focus, I'm going headphones in the office. Yeah, I will often say in the office I'm going headphones in because I feel like I'm distracting you all yeah, so in order for me to focus, I'm going headphones in.
Speaker 3If you need me, pop me a message on teams. I'll take my headphones off yeah, no, that's great.
Recommendations for neurodiversity in workplaces
Speaker 2So in terms of like, what would recommendation would you give to people with like neurodiversity, um kind of adhd, dyslexia or anything like that, within the workplace, and what also would you say to people who are managing it, who perhaps aren't aware of some of the issues?
Speaker 3I would say to people who have neurodiversity advocate for yourself. And I think, doing research. So you understand you. You understand why you're behaving in a certain way, you understand why you might react to something and you can see those behaviour patterns and understand that not everyone has to think you're great all the time and that your neurodiversity is positive all the time and that's fine. But I'm very open with my communication. I think that's very important. That's so important to be like hey, my dyslexia means I really struggle with xyz or you know my autism means I don't like public speaking.
Speaker 3Please don't put me on public speaking, um, but I am good at abc. Try and push me on that. And then it's not necessarily a no diverse person's job to educate people, people around them no but it does help and it does go a long way.
Speaker 3They're never going to be other people neurotypical people are never going to be as interested in neurodiversity as a person who has it, and that's fine, um, but I do think that showing a bit of understanding and going into and understanding people you're working with particularly if you're lie managing them and stuff um, it's really important. My sister has a person with adc that she line manages yeah I'm like a consultant yeah she rings me and she's just like this person's gotten you know um, this person's maybe upset me and I'll just say but what about this? Yeah you know.
Speaker 2And then I think I think it's interesting and I think it's really important actually line managers just understand it, but also take the time to talk, don't be afraid to ask the question about it. And that's one of the big things I've been trying to do within our industry is actually just get people to ask the question about it, to start those conversations, because as soon as you start to break down those barriers, yeah, ultimately people start to open up a bit more and then you have much better, more productive conversations. There's less negativity in the office and people can be open and honest about things. Um, so I think, yeah, perhaps that's where we have to look at it from yeah, learning yeah, every day is a learning day.
Speaker 2It's always a learning day and an experience in the office with you now, um, it's always an enjoyable experience as well um yeah, there is, but it's good. It's good and I think actually everybody brings something different to the office and that doesn't matter whether you're neurodiverse and neurotypical. Actually, everybody's got got something to offer within a company. It's just how we embrace it and take it forward. Well, it's been great to have a chat with you. Thank you so much for opening up on all of this.
Speaker 3Happy neurodiverse to you yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2Thank you.